That post regarding what happened to Shadowman as finally made me break my silence on this issue.

I am surprised you marshalls give the tracks the time of day never mind perform the duties you do.

Are the expenses lavish?(i doubt it) as it seems you don't even get the chance to spend any time with teams,drivers or anyone else either, to make up for being there and being the door mats of the track.

Having read yours and other marshalls posts on how you are perceived and treated, I don't know what motivates you or the ones waiting in line for your job, I could not take being treated as a second class citizen to support a track that cannot function without you.

Is the love of the sport blind? would you ever take a form of industrial action and all walk out?

Did these tracks ever leave the 70's mentality of a work place, or could you marshalls be exagerating how you are treated?

I have considered being a Marshal, but I prefer being a fan, a team insider, or the "press pass holding marmite" as personally prefferable. I have wondered, as you do Steele, what would motivate me from my comfortable position in the roles described above to the role of "one with responsibility."

If the treatment and appreciation of marshals is as we are told, then I think it's a travesty, as the marshals are a necessary, important, and irreplaceable part of the race weekend.

If the race organizers, promoters, and participants don't reward the marshals with the respect they deserve, why do they do it?

I think the fans do respect the marshals and have no idea that they are a voluntary squad doing what they do for the love of racing.

But, I'd probably just pay the tariff and sit in the grandstand.

I can only speak for myself. After a long and varied involvement in motorsports as a driver/rider, mechanic, and sometimes spectator; I took the step to official in order to give back to a sport that has given me a lifetime of enjoyment. While there are some people who show disrespect, I believe that the vast majority do appreciate us and show respect for us and the way we do our job.

As for the financial end of it; I have seldom received any renumeration for my work except for eight years that I was on national staff with a sanctioning body. I figure that I spend an average of $300 per month on my race official activities and it does not bother me one bit. The challenge of improving my skills and attaining the top of my craft provides me with the same sort of pleasure that I derived from racing and wrenching.

I don't envision a serious major work action occuring without hughely serious provocation. We realize that we are a part of the race and that without all of the parts, the racing will not occur. We do what we do for ourselves and the racers. I don't see us letting the others down.

Why am I an Official, because I damn well love it!

I think that says it all, Nomad. There are certain groups of like-minded people that form together to facilitate an end that the group sees as a worthy expenditure of their time, effort, and money.

I think marshals fit this description.

This seems to be a question that more and more people are asking.
I have been marshalling for about 8 years and when I started I was out every weekend saturday and sunday and a lot of Fridays. In the last few years I have cut it down and am just doing meetings that I want to, 750MC and clubs/tracks that treat you like a human. There are a number of clubs that take advantage of both marshals and track cut off times (Donington for example you can run till 8). But you can tell who look after there marshals by the numbers of marshals that turn up.
But to answer what motivates me. Good racing big grids and a good laugh, and being close to the action (sometimes a bit to close). I dont take any notice of all the political arguing or moaning as if you do you wouldnt bother going. Oh and a drink after <beer>

What motivates me to be a marshal? Because I love motorsport! And the social life around fellow minded persons.

Expenses????? What are they? You provide your own kit, transport yourself to your destination, arrange your own overnight accomodation, and stand (or sit in my case) in all weathers.

Therefore ANY appreciation show towards us is always received with thanks.

BUT I see this as being a hobby, not a job. If my hobby was photography, then I'd have to buy cameras and lenses, travel to where I wanted to take the pictures, etc, so why see marshalling for motorsport in any other different light? You're there because you want to be. And remember - you chose how many days you VOLUNTEER to be there for - it's not like a workplace that demands you are there 5 days a week, 8 hours a day.

But going back to Shadowman's original problem, I agree some things in life cannot be planned for. Therefore one instance should not be used to judge an individual as inreliable, and it surely should be seen as a very arrogant attitude when a club sees fit to exclude a person from future events on this basis alone.

That's my view on things anyway.

Anyone who has volunteered for the BRSCC Meeting at Oulton this Saturday will see that there are (At Least) 2 observers per post (most are Exm Obs) - at least 2 flaggies per post and approx 6 incident marshals per post!

Pit Marshals number around 10, paddock/assembly around 10 as well.

Ok, it's only on the short Circuit, but Marshals here know that this Club looks after them!


Last week, I spoke with the MSA to see whether they planned to hold their "Grudge" against me for much longer.

They produced a letter which I sent them early in 2005. (I had totally forgotton about this letter).

In this letter, I politely asked them if there was any chance that I could have my allocated post changed from Flag on the pit wall to somewhere on the bank.
I asked this because I had done this same post for the previous two GP's.
Their reply was a simple "No" as much work had gone into planning the allocations.
I accepted this.

At this same time my Mum was ill - in fact more poorly than I had originally thought.
As the GP got nearer, my Mum got worse and so I sent in my apologies to the Secretary of the GP, and returned my passes.

Unfortunately, the MSA have me down as refusing to work at an allocated post - which I suppose could look like to them, but the circumstances were purely coincidental.

Last week I tried to explain this to them, but they really are not interested, and when asked again if I am to remain "Banned" they answered that all applications are considered on merit.

I am assuming that I will never Marshal a BGP again.

However, I am not overly concerned as my Foreign friends in Canada invite me to their GP evey year.

Some events do treat you as if you're a nessasary evil. Others will wlecome you with open arms.

The latter tends to be the smaller club events with very few exceptions (Silverstone 24 hours and Britcar in general being the main 2)

Expenses - you're having a laugh? We're called voulenteers for a reason. The freebies we sometimes get make up for it I suppose, but to me a nice big wave from the drivers on the cool down lap is payment enough : Freebies and prizes a bonus.

I belive that there was a motion to boycott all BTCC meetings recently, after the chair of the MSA (and BTCC) appointed a marshals representative who wasn't a marshal, But it didn't happen because if all the marshals went on strike, then it wouldn't look very good on us, and there would be no racing for anyone to enjoy - and that wouldn't do at all!

What motivates myself ?
Next best thing to actually racing itself imo <dance> ,besides,after all these years Marshalling,I'd be a lousy Spectator <peek>
Never been interested/involved in the political side of things
As for the GP,after doing 27 of them,I kind have got used to the way things are done and accepted it <devil>
btw,I've only had to 'cry off' on 1 GP,Donington would you believe <doh> ,with no repercussions at all
Have had to cut right back on the number of meetings I do in the last couple of years though,mainly due to the expense :(

An interesting topic Steel, and thanks for bringing it up.

I started my marshalling career 16 years ago, and have worked at all levels of the sport from "clubbie" sprints right up to F1. When I first started doing F1, it was great fun, the teams spoke to us, let us store our kit in their garages, give us coffee and biscuits. Nowadays we are seen as a necessary evil. Therefore I don't do F1 anymore. For similar reasons I no longer do BTCC or other high profile meetings.

I stick to the two Clubs I know will look after me and make my day enjoyable - BARC and 750 Motor Club. Both of these clubs look after their marshals well and show their appreciation with raffle prizes, drinks, snacks etc. However, I don't marshal for the "perks". I do it for the love of the sport, the job I do within it and the unbelievable cameraderie and friendship from the other volunteers.

I did hear about the marshals being giving a voice, although I also heard that they were not given a vote on anything, they were just there to make the tea or something <sarcasm> . Who was it that has been given our voice out of interest?

If I recall correctly, it was Barrie "Whizzo" Williams and Nicky Moffitt

No one really knows who the latter is.

Surely Chris Hobson (Marshals club chair) or Steve Green (The Priest Catcher) would have been more obvious choices. but there we go. I think what caused the more problems was the fact that no one thought to consult the actual marshals who they wanted either...

The guy who was appointed to the MSA Council was a rally marshal from Ireland I believe. George Copeland and Chris Hobson actually went to Thrush HQ to give a presentation on why they should be appointed (and quite frankly in my opinion they are the only people who should have represented race marshals) and were hopeful that they would get a position on Council. They didn't.

Whizzo is the Club's President and he is on the Council but on the race committee, nothing to do with marshals. Nicky Moffit is the Irish Rally Marshal referred to in my previous post.

Someone enlighten your gallant host as to who George Copeland is please?

George Copeland is the National Treasurer of the BMMC. He has been marshalling for ever (one of the original members of the British Motor Racing Marshals Club from 1957 I think). He's also now a Clerk of the Course.

Ah right, thanks.

Any relation to Aarron?

No.

<topic>

Anyway, it occurred to me that I hadn't quite answered Steel's question.

Over the 16 years I have been a marshal, various suggestions have been made that we all walk out at a big televised meeting. However, that would put us all in a very bad light. Therefore, these days, we rely on the people behind the scenes (George, Chris and Stephen Green) to take up our case with the powers that be. Much work has been done with Jonathan Palmer and the MSV circuits to bring conditions up to a reasonable standard.

Of course, all the big racing clubs, have their own marshalling section and have representatives to act on our behalf and in our best interests.

i marshal because i like it...i am in my 20th season and only do meetings i want to..i have been messed about in the past, finishing late etc...my answer is..i wont do that meeting/circuit again..simple !! i enjoy the whole scene and will continue my hobby until i am no longer able to ...byron

The question of WHICH series/events treat you as a nessasary evil and which welcome you can be neatly summed up like this...

I shall now present to you 2 different Series co-ordinators and what they said to try and get marshals to come and marshal for them...

Firstly, Mr. Bernard Charles Ecclestone. Who needs no introduction.

And now, from the Britcar series, Mr James Tucker.

Spot the differences?

Another reason why I'll not be doing F1 for a good deal of time. Although I know loads of people do, and enjoy it. I'll jsut keep doing the 24 hours at least, Not for the freebies (of which there are usually loads) but for the wonderfull atmosphere and because I can then say I have marshaled a 24 hour race every year of my marshaling career!

James tucker quote from www.eerc.co.uk

Ah yes, the lovely Mr Tucker. <sarcasm>

He spent a considerable amount of time in my office in the Pit Lane when BritCar first got going, asking me what he should be doing to make the pit lane safe. I sent a three page report to him, his imported marshals (who'd never worked in a pit lane EVER), the organising club and Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all.

Result: No change. Still the most dangerous pit lane I've ever had the misfortune to witness.

Guess what? I don't DO Britcar!

Although having said that, apparently they are turning up at the Dunlop Great and British at Donington in August. But it matters not as I'm taking a sideways step onto startline. Someone else can have the stress! <roflmao>

That is true, but you can't fault his efforts for attempting to get as many marshals as possible to join up. He does treat them well too even if his Pit Lane safety leaves a lot to be desired.

Yes he does, but he does ask an awful lot from the marshals.

For example, the race on 4 August starts at 1700. It's a two hour race. I'll let you work out what time we will be home feeding the cat. :(

<think> Would have thought you'd be home before me (if I was doing that meet of course <whistle> )

I have no cat btw <peek>

<smartarse>

Well, we live 20 minutes away from Donington. We'll have started off at 7 am to get to sign on for 0730. We won't get home until 2000.

James did actually apologise for the length of time we were working last year's 24 hours.

Well, we've discussed this and we think it is totally unreasable to expect us to work those hours for no pay.

The timetable for the weekend is:

Saturday

0900 - 0915 Mini Challenge Practice
0925 - 0955 Radical Biduro Practice
1010 - 1025 Mini Se7en / Miglia Practice
1035 - 1105 Radical Enduro Practice
1115 - 1135 Ginetta Practice
1145 - 1215 Britcar Qualifying
1225 - 1240 Mini Challenge Qualifying
1250 - 1305 Radical Biduro Qualifying
1310 - 1355 Lunch Break
1205 - 1415 Sport Maxx Cup - 1st Driver Qualifying
1420 - 1430 Sport Maxx Cup - 2nd Driver Qualifying
1440 - 1455 Mini Se7en Qualifying
1505 - 1520 Westfield Qualifying
1530 - 1600 Radical Enduro Qualifying
1610 - 1625 Mini Miglia Qualifying
1635 - 1655 Ginetta Qualifying
Approx 1700 Britcar Endurance Championship Race - 2 hours

Sunday

0900 Mini Challenge Race - 20 minutes
0930 Dunlop Radical Biduro Championship Race - 20 minutes
1000 Dunlop Sport Maxx Cup Single Driver Race - 15 minutes
1030 Dunlop Mini Se7en Championship Race - 20 minutes
1100 Westfield Sportscar Championship Race - 20 minutes
1130 Radical Enduro Championship Race - 45 minutes
1225 Ginetta Junior Championship Race - 15 minutes
1245 - 1330 Lunch Break
1250 - 1330 Guiness Book of Records One Make Parade Attempt
1345 Mini Challenge Race - 30 minutes
1415 Mini Miglia Championship Race - 20 minutes
1445 Radical Biduro Championship Race - 20 minutes
1515 Sport Maxx Cup Two Driver Race - 30 minutes
1555 Westfield Sportscar Championship Race - 20 minutes
1625 Radical Enduro Championship Race - 45 minutes
1720 Ginetta Junior Championship Race - 15 minutes

Can anyone see where the problems are going to be?

Erm, as volunteers, you don't get pay! If you don't like the hours, don't do them...

<thumbsup>

It's usually a 12 hour day if I've got a footplate turn down the railway, not including travel. For some turns, I leave at a little after 5am, book on at 6am, spend all day on a mobile sauna/furness shovelling up to say three tons of coal, then by the time we've got back from the last train, put the loco away and done the necessary end of day routine, it's usually around 6pm. Then there's trying to get all the balck crap off your hands, arms and face before going home!

And all you do all day is wave pretty little flags! <sarcasm>

Guess what, we get paid double on Sundays and Bank Holidays - ...k all! (although if the buffet car staff are in a good mood we might get tea and biccies during the day)

We don't like these hours - therefore we are not doing them!

I take your point about the hours you put in and the work you have to do on the railway - sounds like extremely hard work, but you must love it otherwise you wouldn't do it.

Our problem (and that goes for those people who wave the pretty flags ;) ) is that some days, marshals are standing on post with nothing to do for huge chunks of the day. Boredom and lethargy set in and trying to stay alert becomes increasingly difficult, hence one's personal safety is compromised.

In the pit lane and assembly area though, the marshals are on their feet all day, patrolling up and down, lining cars up etc., with little chance to rest, and so get very tired. Hence one's personal safety is compromised.

See where I'm coming from now? <thumbsup>

I know exactly where you're coming from, and oddly enough, the same principle is true with what I do. If we (the footplate crew) stuff up big time, all hell could break loose, as it's rather substantial stuff we play with. When I did my induction a few years ago, one of the first things we were told was "This is probably going to be the most dangerous job you'll ever do", and that's true. In the worst case scenario for most of the tasks, being scraped up and put in a box is the result for most. The trouble is that the worst worst case scenario is dozens of people getting scraped up and put in boxes, or an explosion with similar effect as a WW2 bomb - do a google search for 'boiler explosion', makes interesting reading.

So in both cases, we're volunteer organisations who have to take responsibility for the safety of other people. OK, in the case of marshals, you're directly responsible, whereas the traincrew are indirectly responsible by doing everything in a proper manner, but ultimately people are putting their safety under our control. If the nature of the job is such that you cannot be sure you can give 100% for whatever reason, then you should not do it. I've swapped a couple of turns recently because the required book-on was 6am, and I was knackered, and figured that I'd be pretty useless for much of the day. Better swap it with someone else than be over tired and cause an incident. Incidentally, by signing the signing-on book we are agreeing with the statement that we are not fatigued, or under the influence of drugs, alcohol or debilitating medication. We're not allowed to do more than 12 hours of 'safety critical' work in any given shift. Not allowed any less than 12 hours break between 'safety critical' shifts, and this also includes regular jobs - there are some people who work shifts on the 'real' railway, so this has to be taken into account both ways too.

I think what I'm trying to say is that if you feel a shift is too long, don't do it because you could end up being a danger rather than a help. I know that often I'm totally knackered after a long day, and the system is there to prevent us from stepping too far over the mark. I wonder if the same is true for you marshals, regs wise?

We have to sign a disclaimer, pretty much the same as you do, saying we are not under the influence of drugs or alcohol and that we are not suffering from any illness that would prevent us from doing the job.

There are no regulations covering the amount of hours we are allowed to work unless it is for an "endurance race" i.e where any one race lasts over 6 hours.

Incidentally I'm gutted to have to send my passes back for this meeting. I love evening racing, even after a long day on the post! Plus this timetable is so packed it wouldn't be a lot of hanging around like certain other meetings. Mentioning none

COUGHCOUGHCOUGHCOUGHgpliveCOUGHCOUGHCOUGHCOUGHCOUGH

Here you go Kev <thumbsup>

link

Oooo Ta Martyn!

Britcar? It's a joke. Seven cars trundling around with no semblance of actually racing isn't my idea of a good day out!

There appears to be some confusion between registering for the championship & actually entering for 'races'......

......as for 'looking after the marshals' - all we got at the first Oulton meeting was bored.

Think we had 22 cars at Combe,still below the anticipated turnout of about 40 cars :(
Don't think it went down that well either,although I enjoyed it,usually busy when flagging <thumbsup>

From what I heard last year............

The Britcar people use the "Registered Competitors" list (Which may be 80+) as a rather misleading method of implying that this is the number of cars that will actually be racing on the day!

Yes, I think that's what they do Mark! Bit naughty really.